Berkeley Dietvorst, PhD (University of Chicago)

Even though we live in an era of “big data” and huge amounts of our internet usage and content consumption are governed by algorithms (Facebook’s newsfeed, YouTube’s related videos, Google’s predictive search, the advertising we’re served online, etc.), many people don’t trust algorithms when they’re presented with the opportunity to use them in their own decision-making.

Berkeley Dietvorst thinks this results in people making a lot of very foolish decisions, and wasting a lot of time, money, and effort.

So, he’s been researching the concept of “algorithm aversion” for several years and he’s published several highly illuminating papers on the topic.

Berkeley has developed a theory of why humans don’t like to use algorithms (they’re probably chasing perfection in their predictions and they excessively punish algorithms for making visible errors) and he continues to work on understanding ways in which we can increase the trust that human decision-makers place in algorithms.

Check out this conversation with Berkeley to hear:

  • Why humans avoid using algorithms to make decisions – and what Berkeley has discovered about how to make people more comfortable with algorithms
  • What – if any – are good reasons to avoid using an algorithm to make a decision?
  • How our cognitive bias can cause us to make bad decisions (about where to invest, what route to take to get to work, etc.) – and how basic algorithms can make all of our lives easier

Listen Here

Check out more from Berkeley here:

Show Notes

  • [1:28] Berkeley is a marketing professor – yet studies algorithm aversion
  • [4:22] Humans are algorithmically averse – what’s our problem?
  • [12:10] Humans are risk-seeking so will choose not to use algorithms in order to seek outsized reward
  • [19:02] Humans err by regularly changing the weighting they give things based upon emotions
  • [26:22] Humans are more likely to use algorithms when they’re allowed to modify an algorithm
  • [35:20] Increasing human adherence to using superior algorithms to make predictions
  • [40:58] Are there ever good reasons for humans to distrust algorithms?
  • [1:04:17] How do we optimize the decision-making for individual decision-makers? And what would Berkeley like to know about how large tech companies get humans to use algorithms?
  • [1:11:15] How can people learn more about Berkeley’s research? And what research projects is he currently working on?

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Brian Blake (Real Friends)

Brian Blake from Real Friends

Many people dream of achieving success – thinking that once they achieve at a certain level that they will be happy. Tara Brach calls this “If Only Mind.

If only I got that promotion…If only we hadn’t broken up…If only I made this much money…then I would be happy.

My friend Brian Blake plays drums for a band called Real Friends that has achieved a level of success that most bands only dream of. Headlining tours across the country, prime billing at the Vans Warped Tour (RIP), and millions of streams on their YouTube videos.

But, that success did come with a cost for Brian in terms of his constant self-judgment relative to his performances – and it created an almost crippling anxiety and self-awareness surrounding his playing.

We dig into Brian’s experiences with meditation to come out of these negative feedback loops, but don’t worry – it’s not all serious. We spend a decent amount of time talking about nu-metal and JNCO jeans as well.

Check out this conversation with Brian to hear:

  • What it feels like to be in a band that suddenly has a lot of people paying attention – especially after years of playing music that not many people cared about
  • The dangers of excessive self-judgment – especially when playing to thousands of people per night – and what Brian did to overcome these feelings
  • How Real Friends thinks about balancing their creative output with the expectations that fans have of them – and how they wrote a more “mature” pop record without giving up their roots

Listen Here

Check out more from Brian and Real Friends here:

Listen to Real Friends here:

Show Notes

  • [01:16] Early creative output with the Baa Baa Show
  • [07:20] Being nu-metal and having ridiculous hair – and early musical experiences in school band and local metalcore acts
  • [16:00] Improving the craft of drumming – both through formal instruction and without formal instruction
  • [27:21] Being your own worst critic – and finding the balance where that enables you to improve without cosntantly beating yourself up
  • [32:56] Getting into meditation to combat self-judgment
  • [40:57] The judgment of the crowd vs the judgment of your peers
  • [47:34] The negative feedback loop of hyperfocus on technique and worrying about screwing up
  • [52:37] Joining Real Friends and experiencing a bunch of fans suddenly caring about your band
  • [01:04:26] Finding the balance between your own creativity and keeping fans engaged
  • [01:15:19] Working with a producer and creating more of a pop” record than a “pop punk” record”
  • [01:24:45] Writing songs in the studio – and writing as a group vs separately
  • [01:33:49] How to learn more about Real Friends

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Adrian Bozman (Head Judge of the CrossFit Games)

Anyone who obsessively consumed everything in the CrossFit Journal from 2008-2014 learned a lot from Boz.

Here’s Boz explaining what to say when a member is concerned about their knees when squatting below parallel.
Here’s Boz talking to Tony Budding.

And here’s an in-depth profile that introduced the CrossFit community to Acid Witch (I’m sure they sold a ton of records from this).

Well, hopefully we can add to the Boz canon with this interview.

Check out this conversation with Adrian to hear:

  • Boz’s background in music – including growing up in a small town punk scene, playing trombone, and studying classical composition in college – as well as Boz’s early experiences with Black Sabbath and Electric Wizard
  • How Boz thinks about fairness in competition – and how someone who values freedom and lack of structure in his own training became head judge of the CrossFit Games
  • How Boz prepares the judges to focus on the important things (rather than “what if” scenarios) and how he helps them get comfortable with making other people uncomfortable in order to uphold the standards of the competition

Listen Here

Check out more from Adrian here:

Show Notes

  • [01:27] A Brief History of Silicon Valley & The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
  • [08:09] Meeting at the CrossFit Level 1 Course
  • [09:53] Growing up in a small town punk scene
  • [15:36] Studying classical composition in university and playing trombone as a youth
  • [24:59] Rapid iteration and postmodern underpinnings in contemporary pop music and getting into doom metal
  • [31:46] Early experiences with Black Sabbath
  • [35:12] Understanding the appropriate context for various movement standards – and Instagram technique trolls tagging Boz in videos
  • [42:08] The standards of a competition create a framework for people to express themselves and their capacity
  • [47:24] How do you handle the emotions of competition – and how do you get comfortable with upsetting people to uphold the standards?
  • [55:36] How do you prepare the judging staff to judge at the CrossFit Games?
  • [01:02:29] Developing the emotional resilience to keep moving forward and focus on the things that matter in sport.
  • [01:07:22] What skills have you learned and seen carryover between working as a CrossFit coach, a CrossFit Level 1 seminar staff member, and as the head judge at the CrossFit Games
  • [01:17:14] Using a back injury as an opportunity for continuing education
  • [01:19:29] Connecting with Boz

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Mike McGoldrick (Training Think Tank)

You certainly wouldn’t accuse Mike McGoldrick of having an over-bearing sense of bravado, but he has achieved a trifecta of fitness business success that few other folks can match.

In 2013, he competed individually as a competitor at the CrossFit Games.

In 2016, he hosted Barbell Shrugged (one of the most popular podcasts in the health and fitness space) for a year.

And, he’s also a coach at one of the most highly respected coaching organization on the planet — Training Think Tank.

So, what does Mike do that has allowed him to achieve at high levels in all of these different areas? How did an engineer become one of the fittest on earth, a podcast host, and a high level coach?

Check out this conversation with Mike to hear:

  • How he transitioned from devoting all of his energy to competition to devoting all of his energy to coaching – and how he now has found balance between the two
  • How he takes in information from research and books – and how makes sure he actually uses and applies the stuff he learns
  • What Mike learned from hosting the Barbell Shrugged podcast that he uses today to help him learn from experts
  • How he thinks of the role of content in the fitness business – and how Training Think Tanks finds the right balance between technical content and content that engages with their audience

Listen Here

Check out more from Mike here:

Show Notes

  • [01:40] CTP’s transcendent content vision
  • [05:56] McG’s training journey from extreme devotion to competition to backing off – and finding a return to competition
  • [17:39] How do you balance competing and training with your ability to be hyper-analytical as a coach?
  • [23:52] How much do the athletes at Training Think Tank chirp each other? – and working around several world-class coaches
  • [35:05] Training breathing dynamics through inspiratory muscle training
  • [47:22] Does Mike miss the weekly content creation grind of the Barbell Shrugged podcast – and the role of content creation in fitness businesses
  • [57:02] How to learn effectively – and the trade-offs between taking in content and creating content
  • [01:05:01] Training Think Tank’s new movement course

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Megan Benzik Opens Up about PEDs

Earlier this year, Megan Benzik was selected for a drug test at the South Regional. Weeks later – if not months – CrossFit HQ released a statement that she had tested positive for several banned substances.

I immediately started getting texts since I had coached Megan for 2016 and 2017 season (so I can’t imagine how many messages she was getting).

Megan made an Instagram post explaining that she was taking both Vyvanse (a prescription ADD medication) as well as Anavar (a steroid) – and that the Anavar was likely contaminated with the other banned substances that she tested positive for.

Since Megan and I have kept in touch since she moved to Arizona last year, I figured it would be a good conversation to have her on the podcast to discuss the situation.

I also feel the need to offer some sort of disclaimer, since I’ve found that the capacity of humans to misunderstand and take information out of context to be boundless:

I certainly don’t support the use of performance-enhancing drugs in sport – and neither does Megan. While we do spend some time talking about reasons and justifications for drug usage, this is not meant to be an attempt to make excuses. Rather, we are trying to dig into the compartmentalization and other psychological gymnastics that an athlete can get into as they go further down the path of performance-enhancing drug usage.

Check out this conversation with Megan to hear:

  • What it felt like being selected for a drug test (when she knew she would test positive) and what it felt like to compete the rest of the weekend at Regionals
  • Why she decided to own her actions rather than make excuses – and how the positive test “snapped her out of” a bunch of justifications
  • Using inspirational quotes to try to improve your mindset – but still feeling like an impostor and a fraud

Listen Here

Check out more from Megan here:

Show Notes

  • [01:50] Moving into and living in a van (down by the river)
  • [09:01] Breaking up with CrossFit – and the feeling of being selected for a drug test
  • [17:26] How did you carry on with the competition knowing that you had likely just failed a drug test
  • [22:18] The difficulty in expaining to people why you weren’t yourself on the competition floor
  • [25:27] Owning your mistakes rather than creating excuses
  • [31:47] How do you justify doing something consistently that you know is ethically wrong?
  • [39:30] Working on mindset” and being able to say the right things – but not actually believing them”
  • [44:39] What do you think your path would have been if you hadn’t been selected for a drug test?
  • [50:45] How did you get started taking performance enhancing drugs?
  • [55:36] Feeling like your performances are a fluke and that you don’t belong
  • [01:04:31] What are your goals post-CrossFit?
  • [01:13:24] Documenting disconnecting and moving into a van…on social media

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Shawn Knight (Child Bite//Berserker Fest)

Some people seem to have an insatiable, irrepressible, uncontainable urge and desire to create.

My friend Shawn fits into that category.

We spend some time discussing where that urge comes from, but the reality is that neither of us really knows.

But something is certainly driving Shawn, since he’s on tour all the time with Child Bite, puts on an annual festival in Detroit, organizes Samhain tribute compilations, designs tour posters and album artwork, and works a graphic design job in corporate America.

Check out this conversation with Shawn to hear:

  • What it was like being Wes Borland from Limp Bizkit’s first recording project
  • What it was like to get a cease and desist letter from one of your musical heroes
  • The trials and tribulations of organizing a multi-year music festival – and why he keeps deciding to do it again

NOTE: We recorded this podcast in the green room at The Empty Bottle, and part of the recording features Unsane sound-checking. I did some editing to make this less distracting, but apologies for the background noise.

Listen Here

Check out more from Shawn, Child Bite & Berserker Fest

And, check out WE ALL WANT OUR TIME IN HELL – the Samhain tribute comp Shawn put together. All the records are sold out, but bands do still have copies. If you want one, reach out to me directly since Like Rats has copies left.

We All Want Our Time In Hell Limited Edition Samhain Tribute Featuring Ghoul, Brain Tentacles, Midnight, Child Bite, And More To See Release Via Corpse Flower Records; Teaser Video Posted + Preorders Available

Show Notes

  • [01:04] Does Child Bite sound like The Jesus Lizard on purpose? –And being the “odd band out” on most shows.
  • [05:57] The beginnings of Child Bite as part of a collective of Detroit weirdos
  • [14:53] Where do the creative impulse and the impulse to share come from?
  • [18:33] Experiments with living in a tiny house.
  • [26:44] What is the creative vision for Child Bite and how does the writing process work?
  • [34:45] Recording with Wes Borland from Limp Bizkit
  • [40:55] What’s going on with Berserker Fest?
  • [57:48] The creation of We All Want Our Time in Hell” – a Samhain tribute compilation – and receiving a cease and desist letter from Danzig”
  • [01:08:27] Where to find out more about Child Bite and Berserker Fest

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Brady Cable & Brandon Senn (Kabuki Strength)

The folks at Kabuki Strength spend a lot of time getting people to roll around on the ground like babies.

And I like that.

It turns out that, especially in a sport like powerlifting, little details matter. So, spending a significant amount of time developing proper movement strategies is well worth the investment.

I recently attended the Kabuki Movement Systems course, and I found it to be quite valuable – and I also really enjoy going to courses outside of my comfort zone (I am definitely not a powerlifter).

I’ve done a lot of similar continuing education as the Kabuki folks in the physical therapy realm, so seeing how they apply their takeaways to their sport as illuminating.

And, we of course got to discuss and joke about the consistent “point missing” that most folks have with regards to movement practice.

Check out this conversation with Brady and Brandon to hear:

  • What is the value of breathing and bracing in performance athletes – and what are the most common pitfalls, misconceptions and misapplications about how to “stay tight” while lifting
  • Why the exact percentage that you lift or the exact program that you follow is not what makes you stronger
  • How to correct movement patterning issues in a remote coaching setting – and what it looks like to actually develop solid technique on your lifts

Listen Here

Check out more from Brady, Brandon and Kabuki Strength

Show Notes

  • [01:26] The archetypes of people who misunderstand and misapply the principles taught in seminars – and a discussion on technique trolls
  • [11:30] Less secure coaches tend to be more combative – so how do you get buy-in from people without arguing with them?
  • [18:33] Some cues are passed down like a bad family heirloom
  • [23:47] What do we actually mean when we talk about breathing and bracing?
  • [34:49] How to correct movement patterns in a remote coaching setting
  • [45:38] Finding the appropriate stress level to create adaptation in training for an individual.
  • [54:14] Finding the balance between dense, theoretical content – and just posting big lifts that get likes
  • [01:10:31] Where to find out more about Kabuki Strength

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Ron Petzke (Bongripper)

My friend Ron has a long history of being in bands with ridiculous names that become popular.

We’ve got Weekend Nachos. We’ve got Bongripper.

There’s something to be said for the idea of making yourself laugh in your creative work – and sometimes that strikes a nerve with other people as well. In fact, when I was standing outside of the Metro for Bongripper’s recent show, there was a Jimmy Buffett concert at Wrigley Field just down the street.

A cadre of Hawaiian-shirt clad Parrotheads hurried past me – only to stop in front of the Metro and loudly exclaim in excitement upon seeing the name “Bongripper” in giant letters across the marquee. Hopefully they checked it out.

But Bongripper isn’t just a band with a clever name. They’ve pulled together an incredibly loyal following of people who like slow and heavy riffs and long songs.

Check out this conversation with Ron to hear:

  • How Bongripper creates songs – and how they think about the relationship between structure, riffs, and the overall texture of the song. And – the frustrations of practicing 20 minute songs while everyone is counting each part differently.
  • How Ron listens to music and records, and how he processes different styles of music as an analytical musician
  • Ron’s top pop music recommendations, including Taylor Swift, Carly Rae Jepsen, and Tove Styrke

Oh, and definitely check out Bongripper’s new album “Terminal” as well.

Listen Here

Check out more from Ron and Bongripper

Show Notes

  • [0:38] “Sir, I can’t transfer you to eBay.”
  • [07:34] Sitting quietly and listening to records – and being a hyper analytical musician
  • [18:34] Doing a lot of counting at Bongripper practice
  • [25:45] Roadburn is the best festival – and learning to appreciate tone
  • [36:35] Playing with tension and release to write Bongripper songs
  • [54:03] Subverting fans’ expectations and making yourself laugh during the creative process
  • [59:57] Vomit, back spasms, and torn wrist ligaments

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Michele Fumagalli (2018 CrossFit Games Individual Athlete)

Michele Fumagalli just missed the CrossFit Games in 2015, and decided that she would be back in 2016.

But, life got in the way, and she discovered she was pregnant leading into the 2016 Open.

When she didn’t qualify for Regionals in 2017 after getting back into training, she thought that her CrossFit dream was over.

However, she locked down a 4th place finish in one of the more competitive regionals out there securing her spot to the 2018 CrossFit Games as an individual athlete.

How was Michele able to qualify for the Games after having nearly given up on her dream – and having the additional responsibility of a family and a career as a registered dietitian?

Well, don’t look to me for answers, but you can check out this conversation to hear:

  • How to experience repeated set backs and remain resilient – and how to not give up on your own personal dreams when you become a mother
  • The emotional play by play of being on the cusp of qualifying for the CrossFit Games in a highly competitive Central Regiona
  • How to develop a positive relationship with food – and avoid toxic all or nothing thinking

Listen Here

Check out more from Michele and Fit Plate Nutrition

Michele doing a knee push-up in 2011

Michele showing off her flip throw skills as a professional soccer player.

Show Notes

  • [01:22] Getting your desk decorated like a high school teen’s locker
  • [03:40] Just missing qualifying for the CrossFit Games, having a child, and coming back
  • [10:54] How do you balance the aspirational self that thinks you can do anything with the more realistic, rational self that recognizes limitations and obstacles
  • [14:33] Giving up on the competitive fitness dream – and doubting yourself coming back into training
  • [21:54] When did you realize you had an actual chance at making the Games?
  • [28:03] Which Games athlete has the fewest Instagram followers? And your dreams aren’t over when you have kids.
  • [31:04] The drama of Event 6 – and being held in a “jail cell” for drug testing.
  • [41:03] Fueling and nutrition during Regionals
  • [47:30] Getting a nutrition coach as a registered dietitian and nutrition coach.
  • [52:14] Helping people understand their relationship with food
  • [55:47] Working with cancer patients on their nutrition
  • [01:04:16] Where to find out more about Michele

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Lindsey Love Jenks (Macrostax)

Lindsey Love Jenks used to coach over 100 individuals on their nutrition. But, she realized there was a much larger market for something in between the individualized nutrition coaching she was offering and impersonal, unadaptable templates.

Lindsey spent a summer training at South Loop Strength & Conditioning in 2016 and – since then – has built and grown Macrostax in an impressive fashion.

Macrostax offers customized macronutrient prescriptions, as well as a meal generator feature. But, I was mostly interested in learning how Lindsey handles the psychological foibles of the individuals who are using the app – and how she’s built and grown her company.

Check out this conversation to hear:

  • The common and damaging psychological traps that CrossFit athletes fall into with their nutrition
  • How to lead and manage a technical team as a non-technical founder
  • How to take user feedback and figure out what people really want – rather than what they say they want

Listen Here

Check out more from Lindsey and Macrostax

Show Notes

  • [01:22] Moving from a high touch, one-on-one coaching environment to a more scalable coaching solution
  • [06:24] Transitioning away from a more high touch coaching environment and maintaining consistency over time.
  • [14:36] Seeing a hole in the market – and trying to fill it with Macrostax
  • [18:54] Building an app and leading developers as a non-technical founder
  • [27:32] Collecting direct feedback from clients – and understanding how to prioritize it.
  • [32:33] Finding the appropriate trade-offs between specifics and flexibility in nutrition coaching.
  • [35:48] Starting in the CrossFit space – then expanding outside of it. What are the differences in marketing and positioning?
  • [47:58] What will the role of the coach be as machine learning improves?
  • [55:04] What are the main priorities and next steps for Macrostax?

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